Kristen: 0:37

Hey everybody. Welcome back. I am so excited because our friend Emily decided to come back today to talk with me some more. hi, Emily. Hello. Welcome back.

Emily: 0:49

Thank you

Kristen: 0:50

So I'm excited about today's topic. we went back and forth a little bit to figure out what we wanted to talk about because there are just so many good topics to cover, but we're gonna talk about. Women Expectations Society has on women if we don't fit the mold like we're supposed to, So do you wanna kick us off Emily? Where do you wanna start with this one?

Emily: 1:11

Sure. We'll start with what we kind of like. Got our idea rolling with Sure. Is like women or girls. Mm-hmm. Because it's taught at the young age. Yes. That you need to be quieter.

Kristen: 1:24

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 1:25

Yes. Than a man or a boy.

Kristen: 1:27

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 1:28

So really the biggest thing I've ever found with that is just speaking in the classroom. Like growing up, you raise your hand and you wait to be called on and the teacher calls on you and. Everybody starts to whisper.

Kristen: 1:45

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 1:45

And they'll be like, oh, I'm sorry, you need to speak up. And then you kind of find this room voice, like the inside voice and you speak in that. But when the guys raise their hand and they start just blurting out the answer, they're never told to, Hey, you should use your inside voice. Right. Bring it back down.

Kristen: 2:06

and I don't know if it's forcefully taught or if it's something that we just absorb that inside voice is what you're supposed to use all the time.

Emily: 2:12

yeah,

Kristen: 2:13

never be too loud. Never speak up, speak only when spoken to, Be mindful and demure or whatever, like be pretty, there's all these things that we're taught and like I said, while it may not be like. Plaster said, this is what you should do. It's learned behavior that we all see because how people are reacting to us even in that small age.

Emily: 2:32

Yeah. And children are just like a sponge, right? Mm-hmm. Everybody always says that they're watching and they're observing. So we notice when you are calling out like our flaws. Mm-hmm. So being too loud is a flaw, but also being too quiet is a flaw. Mm-hmm. You have to use that soft voice. I feel like. I can have a really deeper like voice.

Kristen: 2:57

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 2:58

But when I'm speaking, I tend to go higher. Yes. And use like my attic voice as like in choir they're always like sing in the attic and you're like in the front of your head. Yes. Like really high. And I don't know if that's like an excited thing or like a nervous thing. Mm-hmm. And I feel like I need to. Bring my octave up. Mm-hmm. But I find myself like right up in the front of my head using that voice of excitement almost. Yes. For just talking. Yes. In front of people.

Kristen: 3:31

Yes. I already have a naturally higher pitched voice, but it will be so high sometimes, like when I'm at work and people will be like, Hey, hi. I'm like, I'm good. How are you? And I'm like, what the heck? it just happens. I put on my work face, I'm like, Hey everybody, how's it going? Hi. I hear it and I'm like, that's not really what I sound like. Like you said, it's almost like an excitable voice, or it's almost like the actor I'm portraying for this role will now speak like this. And that's how I talk all the time, and it's so annoying

Emily: 4:02

and it's like, why, why do only women have that? no men a man don't get excited. I need to lower my

Kristen: 4:08

I need to, like, there's nobody does that. we're supposed to fit this mold into whatever we're supposed to be,

Emily: 4:16

and then there's sitting like a lady.

Kristen: 4:18

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 4:19

I'm sitting comfortable. I am. I'm chitchatting.

Kristen: 4:21

Yes. you're right. Sit like a lady.

Emily: 4:25

Sit like a lady. You learn that at a really young age too. I always wore skirts and dresses. Same. And if I didn't have shorts on underneath, which 90% of the time I had to Right. Because I was gonna do a cartwheel at any given moment, of course. Or I was gonna sit crisscross applesauce. And my skirt could come up. But boys don't have to even worry about that because they have longer shorts and they wear pants. Girls in dresses, you have to sit like a lady so you know you're not exposing anything. Or your dress isn't coming up and you just hear those things. Again, a learned behavior of sit nicely in your seat or sit like a lady.

Kristen: 5:05

It's like be prim and proper. Like everything just has to be perfect. You know, we don't go to, what were those like classes that used to send people to like etiquette classes and like walking with the book on your head and everything for good posture. Like, we don't necessarily do that anyway, but I still feel like that's how we treat young girls. Like, you know, just be put together, be quiet.

Emily: 5:26

I definitely agree there is a place for that. Mm-hmm. But I think that men should have, or boys should be taught that same thing and sitting on an airplane. Mm-hmm. okay, I'll sit in the middle seat, I'm the woman, the man can sit on the edge so he can poke his foot out. Yes. You never wanna see a man sit in the middle seat

Kristen: 5:47

he's got long legs. He needs to be able to spread out. He needs to open himself up.

Emily: 5:52

Here I am with my legs crossed or my ankles crossed. Yes. Like my arms pulled in, pulling my shoulders in. Yes.

Kristen: 5:58

yeah. If you guys can see us. we just made ourselves as small as possible, and it's like your arms come the whole way, so your shoulders almost fold themselves in and you keep your legs in like, so you have like, you're just this like

Emily: 6:08

Yes,

Kristen: 6:08

Like you're not even there, like they can't even see you. Like if you're behind a pole, you'd blend right in with the pole. There is nobody there,

Emily: 6:15

Just doing those things are, it's so silly. Mm-hmm. When you start to do them.

Kristen: 6:22

But it's even just, you're not even correcting boys. Like you said, if boys speak out in the classroom or if they're loud and rowdy and rambunctious on the playground, nobody's telling them to slow down or be careful. But like, if a girl were, do the same thing, it's like, well, be careful. You don't wanna hurt yourself. you shouldn't be doing that. Even the activities like, girls can play tag or make little Bouquets of dandelions whereas boys are climbing trees and jumping from the monkey bars. But girls, we don't do that. Let's do the safe things over here. And I do think it trains girls to be kind of, risk adverse too, and to not go for big things. You know, they've talked about in the working world that a man will read a job description and be like, yeah, I don't have all those qualifications, but whatever I'm putting in, I'm the best. Person, they should pick me. But a woman could read the same job description and be like, I don't have that one qualification. They would never pick me. I'm not going to apply like it. It changes your confidence too, with men are very confident in putting themselves out there, but girls and women are left to question themselves because of how they've been raised along that way.

Emily: 7:25

Yeah, absolutely. And again, it's just like a learned behavior. It's not necessarily taught To anyone.

Kristen: 7:33

Well, and it's reinforced too when you see people exhibiting those behaviors. If there's a loud woman or something like, oh my gosh, she's so loud. And that's like a negative thing. even if it's her speaking out about something good or having a lot of personality, sometimes that's a bad thing and people will judge it, whether it's on social media or in real life. then you see that behavior being judged and you're like, well, I don't wanna be like that. So you kind of change and modify your behavior by what you see other people reacting to

Emily: 8:04

Everybody wants to be accepted.

Kristen: 8:06

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 8:06

So you see who's not getting accepted and you're like, I'm not doing that.

Kristen: 8:11

Right.

Emily: 8:11

It turns you away from doing that, and she might be living her best life doing what she needs to do and not giving a care, but we're looking at that as. She should tone it down.

Kristen: 8:23

So recently, there was this guy at work and he's retiring. We're very excited for it. And he had stopped by my office, tell me who's retiring? I'm like, that's great. I'm so excited for you. This is a great thing. are you gonna have a party? And he's like, no, I think there might just be a luncheon or something. I'm like, well, if there is, I would love to be invited. He goes, yeah, I don't know if I would, because you're so loud and obnoxious. And I was like, crying and he walked away. Because it's one of those things where I'm 99% sure he was just kidding. But you know how they say, whenever you say something, even in jest, there's a little bit of truth. So I'm like, do people think I'm loud and obnoxious? that happened on a Monday or Tuesday and by Thursday or Friday, it was still on my mind. So I talked to another friend at work and I'm like, Hey. This guy, said, I was loud and obnoxious, do you think I'm loud and obnoxious? And it's a friend I trust, so I really thought I was gonna get, real feedback. And she's like, well. That already made me nervous. Like if it's not automatic, no, where is this answer going? And she's like, well, you know, you're a very extroverted person and there's a lot of introverted people here. So like anytime that you are kind of, you know, you've got a big personality. And so that, I can see how some people might think that it's loud and noxious and I was like, oh. Okay, so then I'm even more in my head because in my mind, loud and obnoxious is like that drunk girl at the club who's making a whole spectacle of herself that you don't wanna be around She's so annoying. And I'm just like, if people think I'm loud and obnoxious, and that's what I think loud and obnoxious is, is that me. because nobody wants to be the loud and obnoxious girl, I thought that was a pertinent story to share at this point.

Emily: 10:05

And it's just something that, we learn as children and we see it our whole lives this is good, this is bad, this is praised, this is not, yes, this is acceptable, this is not acceptable. And or a social setting, it's acceptable mm-hmm. To do it here. It's, it's acceptable to go to a sporting event and cheer And be loud and have fun, but. You don't wanna take it too far. Even there, you don't wanna be the drunk girl Screaming or the drunk girl in the bathroom that everybody's, fawning over. Because she's just, oh, I just can't go out there looking like this. anything that she has to say is just like, okay. I don't wanna look like that. I don't wanna act like that.

Kristen: 10:45

but it's hard because how do you deal with other people's perceptions of you?

Emily: 10:50

I am always worried I'm making the wrong choice. did I say the right thing? Did I say the right thing for them? Did they hear it right? I always question myself first, I'm sure that stems from somewhere. Along my childhood as well. But I. Need to know that it's definite, you like me or you don't like me, I need to know that. We're meshing Well or we're fitting in. Yes.

Kristen: 11:16

Yes. Because there's so much fakeness too. And so it's hard to tell like, do they really like me? Are they just acting like they like me? Is it a mean girl situation? And they're being nice to my face and they're all talking about me behind my back. Like, where am I? I try to not care. But yes, that needing to be liked and needing to be validated, that I'm worth something to someone. Is so hard for me it's something I'm really trying to work on to get that validation from myself and not depend on my self worth from what other people think about me. That's really hard.

Emily: 11:49

Yes.

Kristen: 11:51

I think that goes into trying to fit into the mold that people want us to be. you talked a little bit about how we kind of have molds for girls, but what do you see, as adult women? What are some things that are taught that we're supposed to be or do or not be and not do as adult women?

Emily: 12:10

I think the big one right now is you should be able to. Be really good at your job. Be that boss babe. Mm-hmm. Or be that business woman. You go, you hold your steady job, but have your house all together too.

Kristen: 12:22

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 12:23

And this is something that I am stepping into for the first time of having a home.

Kristen: 12:28

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 12:28

Knowing that everything in this home relies on me and being a business owner

Kristen: 12:34

mm-hmm.

Emily: 12:35

Everything in my business relies on me.

Kristen: 12:38

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 12:40

And we're just expected to do both. at the same time.

Kristen: 12:43

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 12:43

Expected. That's the only word. at school they teach you, you have your books, your work, your homework, your tests. So that's just your job. I was very fortunate to grow up in a house where we also had, not necessarily chores, but jobs You see it needs to be done and you do it. we're all part of this family and we're a team at home being able to cook and clean is a luxury for some people. Mm-hmm. So we are very fortunate to be able to have a clean home and food on the table. But then you become an adult. And they just throw you into it and you say, here's your job and here's your house. And then maybe one day you have kids.

Kristen: 13:25

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 13:27

Keep up with it.

Kristen: 13:27

Yep. be perfect at all of it.

Emily: 13:29

smile

Kristen: 13:30

Yep. And don't mess up anything, because if you mess up one area, then you're a failure in all of them. So don't mess up anything. Be the perfect worker. Be the perfect wife. Be the perfect homeowner. Be the perfect parent. be perfect at everything. Okay, no problem. You've got this, but you know, if you don't Then we're all gonna judge you.

Emily: 13:48

Because how many of us have heard, you know that, women belong in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. Children should be seen and not heard.

Kristen: 13:54

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 13:55

So still have a place and a time, but if I don't prep dinner before I go to work. We're not eating dinner when I come home from work. Because there's just not enough time when you come home to do everything. So you also have to have, you know, your boundaries I can't do it all. I can't wake up in the morning and immediately start my day if. My laundry from last night isn't finished. Because the first thing on the list is to finish the laundry. Everything else has to wait.

Kristen: 14:29

Right? and it's hard because you do wanna be perfect at all the things. You don't wanna fail anything. And even a little mistake can sometimes be seen as a failure for people like us Maybe some people pleasing tendencies. And want all the things. it's hard because you're trying to be what everybody else wants you to be or what you think you're supposed to be. does it really matter if your laundry isn't done that morning? Does it really matter if you are making dinner or if you pick up pizza on the way home? the world doesn't end if those things happen.

Emily: 15:04

And that fear of failure and I've never truly failed at anything. Same. You know, I was a B student. Mm-hmm. Growing up. I danced growing up was fairly good at that. I own the studio now Pretty good I think. I, helped around the house did what we were supposed to do we went to church.

Kristen: 15:26

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 15:27

I taught it Bible school. All those things never truly have failed, but that is the biggest fear we're failing at life.

Kristen: 15:37

Yeah, it's hard because with social media you see what everybody else is doing with their life and how they're succeeding, whether it's real or not. it plays into you. And then I end up playing the comparison game. I have a really hard time with stuff,'cause I'll see people buying this stuff or going on this trip and I'm like, I don't have that stuff. I'm not going on that trip. I don't have this thing. And I start to feel like I'm failing at something like you. Straight a's forever. I never failed at anything. I was the good girl the whole time growing up, you know, never did drugs, wasn't drinking, wasn't getting in trouble. I was the perfect girl. So I always felt that even the slightest bit of failure, the slightest, hint of failure, made me think like I was just the most horrible person. I have failed at everything. And that's not true. I think some of it is self-imposed and I'm trying to get better with it. You know, they say, fail early, fail often. You learn from your mistakes, which in theory sounds great. I love that idea, but failing even a little bit, even if I make a mistake at work, I'm like, oh my gosh. what are they gonna think about me? They're gonna think I'm incompetent and now I can't do this. I blow everything out of proportion. I think it comes from some of that early learning that, you know, be perfect.

Emily: 16:50

I am finding a lot of times. People that I've gotten close with who maybe also have similar jobs to me, they are dance teachers at other studios locally, or I meet people through, Facebook pages And conventions. They don't have it all together either.

Kristen: 17:08

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 17:09

And it's becoming more talked about, and this is a fairly mixed gender role. So it's not just. Me as a woman, as a dance teacher, or me as a woman, as a homeowner. There are male dance teachers, there are male homeowners. everybody is doing the same thing. Everybody is feeling those same things and I, that's why I think everything is kind of changing, you know, every so many years we have a new thing that comes up, but it always still stems back to those basic. Male female roles.

Kristen: 17:46

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 17:47

Like in the house, you have the male takes out the trash or the female cooks. And not necessarily does it have to be that way, but you hear more often than not that that's the way that it is. So to talk to somebody else in a similar age that I am to a similar job that I am. Maybe she's feeling the same way. I dunno how to keep my car clean and my house clean and get to my job on time and do all of this. Like, okay, not alone.

Kristen: 18:18

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 18:19

I like social media for reaching out and seeing that everybody doesn't have it all together and thinking you're priorities.

Kristen: 18:27

Well, I think that's so important. So two things on that. So this is where I kind of, I. I don't wanna use the word crazy, but it's the first word that came to mind. So I'm a very traditional person in so many ways, but when it comes to that kind of thing, we are a little role reversal in our house because I work, and my husband's a stay at home dad, so he does the cooking and cleaning. I take the trash out. He would say not as often as I should, but I like to wait for it to actually be full so I'm not wasting trash bags. But we do kind of have those role reversals where he does do a lot, but that's the choice we've made. he works in the house, does all the laundry, lawn mowing, cleaning, fixing, And I just go to work and make money so we can survive. which works for us. But, you're right, it's weird because I don't have the same struggles as some people because I'm not having to do all of the things, but we each kind of have our own roles to play. Everybody's got their struggle of trying to keep up with whatever.

Emily: 19:26

Yeah. it has to be done. it's just figuring out who's gonna do it, what time is it getting done?

Kristen: 19:31

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 19:32

Are we able to do it now or does it have to wait?

Kristen: 19:35

Right. And I do like what you said about, people being more comfortable with talking about, and I think that's an opportunity for social media for people to be more real and say, this is my life. I have seen some of that where people will post pictures of, their messy living room and they're like normalized not having a perfectly aesthetic pleasing house. And it's, it's interesting because I feel like there's still. And maybe it's just me kind of fear about that. Like I say, I want to be authentically me and this is me and I wanna be the same person on the internet as I am in real life. But then when there's a picture of me that I'm gonna post, I'm like, oh, but it's not a great angle or this doesn't look great. I wanna be authentically me If I don't like how it looks, that's still what I look like. And having that balance of being like, what if I put this picture on, whether it's of me or my house or something else, people are going to judge it and maybe they're not. I read something that you only think people are thinking negative thoughts about you because you are thinking negative thoughts about you or something. And maybe it's not true, but I have like, sometimes people post another picture. I'll zoom in on their picture, see what's in their background It kind of in a judgy way, and that's just who I am, but I'm working on it.

Emily: 20:47

You're curious about other people's lives, not necessarily that you're judging them. Right?

Kristen: 20:51

That's right. I didn't mean judging like in a negative way. It's more like evaluating. Yes. because especially friends who may be your only friends with on social media or friends that live far away that you don't see a lot. Or even if they live nearby and you don't see them a lot. I think if there's somebody you care about, you are interested in their life and you're trying to look for more than just what they're piecing together. Or you are trying to piece together more than just the little pieces they're putting out.

Emily: 21:14

One thing growing up, I very fortunate to have a mom and a dad Who stayed together and are still together.

Kristen: 21:22

Same.

Emily: 21:23

And a lot of kids my age didn't have that.

Kristen: 21:26

Like,

Emily: 21:27

didn't really realize it till you're a little bit older that you do have maybe, you know, two moms and two dads. Right. And you have a stepparent But that plays a role into things too, like. Being able to stay in the same house and grow up with the same structure is a lot different than kids who are bouncing back and forth. They're learning different behaviors than somebody who is in the same household. I learned very early on that it had to get done, so who's gonna do it? Right. It didn't matter if it was a male job or a female job.

Kristen: 22:01

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 22:02

I was always working with my dad. you need your car worked on I can tell you how to troubleshoot it. And then I would let him know like, Hey, this is what I already tried. This is what I already did, and then we'd work on it from there. But male jobs,

Kristen: 22:17

mm-hmm.

Emily: 22:18

Female jobs weren't really a thing in my house. My dad loves to cook and he's really good at it. Biggest thing was my mom had four kids. So she was busy doing other stuff, so my dad would come home and cook.

Kristen: 22:31

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 22:33

Which, just how it worked for us. But To hear friends who were like, oh, my dad didn't even come home last night because he had to work two jobs or

Kristen: 22:41

mm-hmm.

Emily: 22:42

I never experienced that.

Kristen: 22:44

And it's interesting too, from a different perspective,'cause like you, my parents still married, that's what I grew up in. But I did have friends that had, you know, their mom and stepdad and then their dad and their stepmom. I had one friend and it didn't seem like a big deal, every other weekend she was with, her dad and Patty, and during the week she was with her mom and Nathan. Well, I remember parents' names from like forever ago. it wasn't that weird at the time because that's just how it was, but now as an adult that has a child of my own, that seems so crazy to me. when I've heard some co-parenting stories from friends too. it's almost like sometimes different environments what they can do at one house opposed to what they can't do in another house, or how the structure in the home is. And it's kind of like they're not getting an overall. Childhood. Yeah. And I think that does turn into adults who can be broken too, because of how they've had to come about in dealing with that. And I mean, I get it. Like there's a time and a place for divorce, like this isn't what that's about. But seeing it now from my perspective as an adult instead of a child, I feel like it's even more complicated. Both for the parents and the children involved.

Emily: 23:49

Yeah. Obviously that's a situation that nobody expects to find themselves in. Right. Maybe that's the reason why I don't see a gender role and they do. Or maybe that's the reason why they don't see the gender role and I do. And it's like, wow, I never really thought about this as a child. I spent the night at your house and I didn't realize your mom did all of the yard work. It's like, my mom doesn't mow grass. My dad mows grass. But your mom mows the grass.

Kristen: 24:15

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 24:15

And that is something. Obviously you talk with your partner whoever you're living with, I've got a couple girlfriends that rented a house together for years so they mowed their own grass. I. Moved in with a man and said, I will not be mowing grass. That's not a job for me.

Kristen: 24:30

I would like to hire a landscaper, please. Or a gardener.

Emily: 24:35

I love that you know how to work and that is a working man job, right?

Kristen: 24:41

I can do the ride on lawnmower. I would do that. then my husband's joke to me, he is like, yeah, you would do that if you could figure out how to get it started. Do you even know how to do that? Look, dude, if you weren't here, I would figure it out

Emily: 24:53

My joke all the time is I'm just as good as any man, and it's not necessarily a joke. if I didn't have a male figure to do it for me I 100% could figure it out I grew up working with my dad on all sorts of things, I worked on trucks with my dad. I worked on cars with my dad. I had a vehicle that wouldn't start if it was too cold or it would run outta coolant and my dad's not always gonna be there to pick me back up. I had to figure it out myself. Obviously everybody has to have a little guidance, so I was lucky that it was him. To guide me in that direction. But now if something happens with my vehicle, I'm not stuck on the side of the road freaking out.

Kristen: 25:31

Right. You're not like some damsel in distress. Like, what was me? I need a man to come save me. And with YouTube now too, there's so many things you can figure out. I use this story, it was, it's been years now, but, our garbage disposal stopped working. So, and, at the time, husband, but he was, my boyfriend then wasn't home and I wasn't gonna wait for him. So I'm like, I'll figure out how to fix this then. And like, I watched a YouTube video, try to figure out what's wrong and push the little buttons. Got the little Allen wrench Figured it out and I fixed the garbage disposal. so it's things like that where if I want something to be done, I will just figure it out on my own. Or find somebody to do it for me. after trying it myself, you know what I mean? it's not like I'm this huge feminist, independent woman. I still love having a man who does wanna take care of me and will do things for me, but he may not be here forever. I do wanna be able to be self-sufficient in some ways where I can do things myself. Or if I have to take my car to a mechanic, I'm not gonna be one of those dumb girls that's like, oh really? You think I need a new water pump? Okay. I wanna have already done it myself, even if it's Googling my car's symptoms. You know what I mean? I don't wanna be taken advantage of. he has raised me in a way that I know more about how an engine works and I'm not just gonna be taken advantage of, Normally he fixes everything but sometimes it's too much time. if the labor's too much, we take it to get fixed. they did try to tell me something like they wanted to tell me something else. I'm like, that's not what's wrong with my car. But anyway, all that to say, it's important to be confident know it and speak up about it you don't always need somebody else to be there for you.

Emily: 27:03

Absolutely. I have seen, women and girls, Grow up in a very traditional household. Where they are only doing the inside work, cooking and cleaning, worrying about things like that. And then now they're a little bit older and they're asking what kind of wiper fluid they have to buy for their car. how do I put wiper fluid in my car? And it's things that I grew up just. expected, like This is your vehicle now, so you take care of it. Again, obviously with some guidance But realizing that some people didn't have that at all, and seeing now as adult women who have no idea what's going on with their vehicle. Or don't feel confident asking a man for help. Because that's just not what they did.

Kristen: 27:49

Yeah. That's interesting too, because asking for help is kind of a. it's interesting because I never want people to think that I can't do something. asking for help is hard for me. Not unlike my car stuff, but like in general, right? Like I will try to exhaust all options of try to figure something out on my own. Even like if I'm at work and my computer isn't working, like if there's some kind of IT issue. I will try everything. I'll turn it on, turn it off, do a hard restart. I will do all the things, and then by the time I call the help desk, I'll be like, look, I did this and this and this, and I can't get it, and now I need help. I want them to know, I'm not just this weak minded person who's like, oh, this isn't working. I'm just gonna call for help. I want to solve problems on my own first. Yes.

Emily: 28:32

I think that's a big thing that by teaching little girls to only fit. This standard or this mold. Mm-hmm. You're taking that away, like you were talking about the risk earlier. Mm-hmm. Like you're taking away that decision making for them. They're not problem solving, they're not figuring it out for themselves. Mm-hmm. Then they're on top of that scared to ask for help. Mm-hmm. but now we've put them in this little. Square.

Kristen: 28:59

Yeah, we've made them helpless and we've not given them any option to ask for help, so we just kind of keep them down the whole time. Which is why we try minimizing women and I don't know how. So how do you think we can change that? Like you're around a lot of young girls, how do you maybe try to give them a different perspective of what being a girl is?

Emily: 29:25

I try to lead by example especially if something's broken around the studio, I try to fix it.

Kristen: 29:29

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 29:30

And problem solving as a group. So even just the littlest things of so and so lost their shoe. Why don't we all look in our bag? Everybody look at what's on the bottom of your shoot. Does it say your name does, do you have an extra, do you have three shoes? You don't have three feet. Trying to get them to think for themselves, asking questions and giving them a multiple choice, that clearly there's only one answer to.

Kristen: 29:56

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 29:57

I'm seeing who's paying attention and who's gonna speak out. Letting them all speak is the biggest thing.

Kristen: 30:04

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 30:05

And for class purposes might not always be the best. Right. I want them all to feel heard. And I want them all to know that their voice matters.'cause there are so few spaces that everybody gets the chance to say something. Even at work, you're sitting in a meeting and three people talk maybe. Not everybody gets to say it. And then you and your group of people go back and you talk about it on your own. So letting them all have that space to talk and feel heard.

Kristen: 30:38

I think that's huge because we started by talking, girls are kind of told to be quiet and to take up less space. do you find, in the classroom setting, there's a time and a place to talk, but how do you feel that you are teaching them that it's okay to find their voice and it's okay to be their big personalities? How do you encourage some of that with the kids that you work with?

Emily: 31:00

For the personality part. Every kid is, you know, coming into their own at every stage of life. If you learn a trick outside of the studio and you come in and show me, and you can consistently do it, of course I will work that in for you to have some sort of spotlight. Then tells all the other kids they have to work on something too.

Kristen: 31:18

Mm.

Emily: 31:19

Okay. So we got eight counts of she's gonna do this, what are you gonna do? Can you show me something that you like?

Kristen: 31:25

Oh wow. And then I

Emily: 31:26

try to go to each girl and work on something with them.

Kristen: 31:30

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 31:30

And you don't have to do the same thing as your neighbor. You can do something different. What do you like to do? just trying to give them that space.

Kristen: 31:38

as a student who's had you Teach that way. in the finale dance for recital this year when you're like, and then you do two poses, I'm like, wait a minute, I gotta come with my own poses. the whole time I'm practicing, I've just been doing everything you do. And then it wasn't until this past week, I'm like, I'm gonna come with poses on my own. for me again, that's like, what if I picked the wrong thing? What if I do something silly? What if they think that's dumb? And I realize this is such a minor thing, but I feel it fits into what you're saying. The girls who are very confident and comfortable with themselves and know exactly what they wanna do, and this is them. And then there's the other girls who are like, this is really nervous. How can I pick something? How can I do something that isn't what everybody else is doing? And what if that makes me look dumb? because, you know, you're so used to, especially in dance, having the structure. You do this move, you count this, you do this, then all of a sudden that freedom of wait a minute, do something else, it's kind of scary. And I think it does go back to that both. The fear of failure because what if I do it wrong? And the what? I need to be quiet and keep to myself and not do whatever. So, yeah. Do you have that though? Are there any girls who you do tell them like, what do you wanna do? And they're like, I don't know.

Emily: 32:48

I have so many of them look at me and they have like, I don't know what I like, can you just tell me what to do? And I'm like, that's where we go into the conversation of this is just for fun. This is not the end all be all. You're not gonna die. Your life is not riding on this.

Kristen: 33:06

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 33:07

And sometimes that takes kids out of the moment and they actually have to start thinking about it because they just hear like that perfectionist in them is just, this is it. You have to do this and it needs to be perfect. Or maybe they're in multiple things. I got a lot of kids who do sports.

Kristen: 33:26

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 33:27

A lot of them who dance outside of the studio, maybe for school or for another team, they compete. And it's drilled into them that if they are not perfect, it is wrong. I got basketball girls who, well, all I did was ride the bench this year, so I'm not even gonna try out. well, let's evaluate why you were there. How did you start there? Well, at the beginning of the season, I was injured.

Kristen: 33:52

play into it then.

Emily: 33:53

are you building yourself back up? Are you coming back from that injury like where you thought you were going to? Well, no, it took a little bit more time. So we're on the bench a little bit more. It does mean that you're any less for sitting there, you're still part of the team. And this might be where my people pleasing and my instinct comes into, Not necessarily fix each person, but have that relationship with each kid.

Kristen: 34:18

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 34:19

I try to connect with each student about something. I want them to feel heard. I want them to know that this is a safe space and that they can be themselves.

Kristen: 34:29

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 34:29

And I've got a couple girls who get really loud and excited and they'll be like, watch this and do this. then they notice other people looking at them and they get, Ugh. it's like, no, you were doing good. I want you to do it just like that again. Or I'll call girls out, when they're dancing and they can see themselves and they're like doing this big arm movement. Mm-hmm. I'm like, I really like how you did that. Can everybody else do it like this? sometimes the person who gets called out starts to shut down. Because now everybody's looking at them. And it's not a bad thing. That was a good thing.

Kristen: 34:59

It's because of how we've been ingrained. Don't be too big. Don't be too loud. Don't be too much.

Emily: 35:04

Don't be the center of attention. don't draw attention from everybody else to yourself.

Kristen: 35:09

Yes. And that's so hard. And the perfectionism thing too. And it's interesting because you are not a competitive dance studio, so it doesn't matter as much Yeah, you want everybody to get the dance, but it's not like their scores being taken off if they don't. But it's interesting because. I have a hard time too mentally, I was in theater my whole life and missing a line or doing something wasn't as big of a deal. I could just keep going. Or if somebody else missed a line, I could still pick up, it wasn't a big deal. But if I miss a step, if I do something wrong, it's like mentally I'm like. Oh my gosh, it takes me longer to get back. And it's so weird I don't know if it's a confidence thing Obviously I acted a lot longer than I've danced, but so much of it is mental. And I think even that piece of the girls, shying away from being too much, it's all a mental thing. I don't know how we get people past that.

Emily: 36:01

I don't know, because I still struggle with that. As the teacher, it just transfers into something different like you were saying earlier, it's a reflection of me at the end of the year. What these girls learned and how they perform, and I always at the end, come out with the microphone and I give a speech and I thank everyone and I am terrified. I am shaking. I am reading my word for word, that I've practiced this script and I'm holding the paper in front of me and I'm like, I am gonna mess this up. I'm gonna say the wrong thing. Nobody knows what I wrote on that paper.

Kristen: 36:35

it's not like it's somebody in the audience being like, oops, she got that word wrong. Oh, she pronounced this one wrong. This is not what she wrote at all.

Emily: 36:42

Nobody in that whole room knows what I was gonna say except for me. So if I didn't say it right, that's okay. Or if I skipped a line and I moved on and I started talking about something else, that's okay.

Kristen: 36:55

And some of them probably aren't even listening to you because all the performers are on the stage. They're all like waving to their little girl. some of them may not even be paying attention.

Emily: 37:03

They have no idea what's going on. They're not paying attention to me. They're paying attention to who they're there to see.

Kristen: 37:08

they're already gathering their items. They're like, all right, it's been two hours. We gotta get outta here. But I do think you know about it being mental. I think we worry about what other people think about us more than people are actually even thinking about us.

Emily: 37:22

I'm worried that I'm not doing enough or I'm not performing right.

Kristen: 37:26

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 37:27

And I think that's something else we teach. Just kids in general you're performing to look like something maybe you're not

Kristen: 37:34

mm-hmm.

Emily: 37:34

On the inside,

Kristen: 37:35

I feel like that performance piece is not even when you're performing, it's just in life. maybe this is the theater girl in me, all the world's a stage. But I feel like when I go to work, I have a certain. Character that I'm playing I'm the boss and I do this and talk like this. and then when I am around my family, I'm a different version of myself because I'm performing a different role or when I'm with my friends. And different groups of friends. the way I perform around different people, I may say things differently or I may use different words or my voice fluctuates. Like we talked earlier about how my voice is higher around these people or not. it's weird because I do feel like there's these different characters that I play. in real life situations. Do you experience that at all?

Emily: 38:22

It's funny that that's how you described it, because at the beginning of every year, I say, all right, it's time to pretend to be Miss Emily.

Kristen: 38:31

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 38:32

That's who I am. I'm not pretending

Kristen: 38:34

Right.

Emily: 38:35

I am a teacher, I am a dance teacher, I always say I'm pretending to be Miss Emily today. And where that comes from, I have no idea I have always said it since I started.

Kristen: 38:47

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 38:48

And when I taught Bible study at school or at church, I only have ever taught itty bitties like 2, 3, 4, 5 year olds.

Kristen: 39:01

little. That's

Emily: 39:01

all I've ever taught. Okay, I'm gonna pretend to be the teacher now. Mm-hmm. I'm not pretending I am the teacher. Yes. So that play, pretend that we play as kids. Mm-hmm. You're playing teacher. I still play that now as an adult and I don't know if that's a way to mental map where I'm at during my day. Because. I only teach at night, right? So it's like, okay, two o'clock rolls around, I'm switching into Miss Emily mode.

Kristen: 39:31

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 39:33

Why I've been Miss

Kristen: 39:34

Emily all day. Right. But it is different and I think, you know, whether it's a mental map or it's kind of, Like you said, you're getting into that mode. Like it's where you're going and it's kind of how you prepare. And it's almost like if you are playing a role, like if you are this character, then if somebody doesn't like you for some reason, it's not you, they don't like, it's that character. They don't like, so I think it's almost like a barrier. And I feel like maybe that's how I distance myself too, because, if they don't like me, it's not really me. They don't like, because they don't actually know me. They just know. this part I was playing. And I also wonder If it's partly imposter syndrome, like there are times where I don't feel like I belong here. I don't feel like I should be doing this. what am I doing at this table, at this meeting? I'm not as smart as these other people, But then I, you know, I have my pen in my notebook and I'm, you know, like boss Kristen making big decisions and telling people what we should do so I don't know If it's my way of tricking myself. Like fake it till you make it and you know, you're like, I'm going to pretend to be an assembly now and then that's who you are. I don't know what it is.

Emily: 40:42

I've heard other people have similar things to that, but I've never heard anyone be like pretending or like role playing. Yeah. It's like I'm just roleplaying my actual life.

Kristen: 40:54

Yes. But that's what it feels like sometimes. Like I am playing different parts and I'm the different characters in the scenes of my life. during friendship episodes we've talked about opening up and getting to those deeper level friendships and authenticity. since I haven't let people in to really know who I am, then nobody really knows me anyway. They just know these roles that I play. I don't ever feel like I'm fully belonging or connected because I don't let people in past the mask that I'm wearing.

Emily: 41:23

I feel like very few people truly know who I am.

Kristen: 41:27

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 41:27

And most people know what I stand for, my beliefs or what I like, but not everybody does. Mm-hmm. Miss Emily doesn't need to show. Right. you need to know that your child is safe here. Mm-hmm. That your child is learning something here and that your child's gonna make it home with all their things

Kristen: 41:45

unless they leave their shoes behind and their names aren't on it. Yeah. But that's a parent problem.

Emily: 41:50

Unless I have a shelf. The Lost and Found Shelf. Right? Yes. That always has multiple pairs of shoes. Right.

Kristen: 41:58

that's a good point I think that goes back to what we first started with about how girls are taught to be. I think some of that is why we create these characters or pretend to be a certain way we're told to be this way, but in the comfort of our own home. We don't have to take up space. We don't have to sit like a lady. We don't have to be quiet and demure. We can be whoever it is, and be fully open with who we are. Sometimes that's hard too, because we've spent so much time playing all the roles and being all the people to everybody else that we lose who we are.

Emily: 42:32

Like you were saying earlier, minimizing women. So minimize your interest to fit this or moving in with a man has really put this into perspective as well. He has his man cave.

Kristen: 42:47

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 42:48

He has his basement with his tools and interests.

Kristen: 42:51

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 42:51

Everywhere. But my living room should look like nobody lives there. Mm. You know, mentally I'm like, I can't have a lived in home. I can't have things that I like. And then realizing this is my house.

Kristen: 43:05

It should be what you like.

Emily: 43:07

I'm hanging up the things I wanna hang up. I'm painting the walls, the color, I wanna paint the walls. Things like that. And maybe making that house more of a home and more of that safe space where you can be authentically you.

Kristen: 43:20

Well, I think it's hard too, you talk about interests and the way trends are, and how people get on trends and it's like, if you don't like what everybody else is liking, if you're not into all this mainstream or whatever is big on pop culture, like If you like some niche area over here that nobody else does and you're a weirdo, or back to what you were saying, minimize it. Like, well, nobody else likes that. people are gonna think you're weird, so maybe don't talk about that. And you end up hiding who you are and then you're like, oh sure. I also have a Stanley and drink pumpkin spice lattes. And yes, I also am very basic, even if you're not, but that's what you want to be to fit in.

Emily: 43:59

You're fitting into the mold that society is telling you

Kristen: 44:02

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 44:02

Not your own being.

Kristen: 44:05

Yeah. And especially, you know, with social media and not just regular social media, but like the reels, like ones that come out that are trending, that are funny, that show like stereotypical whatever. I think we start to think that that's how everybody is. I'm in my forties now and like, well, this is what 40-year-old women should be doing and this is what I should be doing. And it's not because I still feel like I am like the 22-year-old girl that graduated college and is still wearing sparkles in her everything. I feel like I'm not what society says I'm supposed to be. But like what do they know?

Emily: 44:37

I, that is so funny because it immediately brought me back to my very first recital that I ever hosted, and it honestly went so great and I panicked the entire time, but nothing went wrong. Everything went so smooth. But the biggest thing I can remember is getting ready that morning and putting my makeup on, and I also danced. so I was doing my hair and putting my makeup on, and I had this really pretty white. Three quarter length dress that came down right below my knees because I'm an adult. I needed to wear, something that made me look like it and feel like an adult. And then I looked at my glitter hairspray. And I just thought, no, you're an adult. So for my first,

Kristen: 45:22

you didn't glitter yourself.

Emily: 45:23

I didn't put glitter in my hair. 90% of the time I have glitter in my hair. everybody comments on it and I don't care. The chunky gel glitter that's trending right now. I have got glitter in my hair and older women will be looking at me Almost judging me right out in the open I have a fun job. I work with children, It's partly for them. It's mostly for me.

Kristen: 45:44

Because it's something you enjoy.

Emily: 45:46

It brings me joy and it's not hurting you.

Kristen: 45:49

Right. And that's the thing we need to be more open about letting people express themselves that way lately I've been trying to be the girl in the sparkly shoes and I have like five. pairs they're the cutest little Kate Spade kids. I've got them in silver, gold, black, pink, blue. Okay. So yeah, five, of sparkly shoes. And I try to wear them with everything. Even when I go to work, I'm like in dress pants and I have sparkly shoes and I've joke with people, like I'm trying to be the girl in the sparkly shoes. And I've passed people in the hall and somebody will be like, Hey, sparkle shoes. I'm like, see, it's working. I've always loved that, like when body glitter was big, when I was in high school I'd have it all over my chest, all over my cheeks. Like body glitter was life I love the sparkles. a few weeks ago I had on a dress it was kind of like a really cute frilly dress. Puff sleeves had like little flowers on it, and I had a pair of my sparkly shoes on. I thought it looked super cute. I came home from work that day. I got compliments at work too. and I come home and my husband goes, you look like a 5-year-old. And I was like. Oh, and I really kind of did, like if you picture a little girl going to Sunday school and she's got her dress on, but she has little tennis shoes like I did I guess, but it was still cute. But that's something I struggle with because again, like 40-year-old women don't dress like that. Like what are you doing? But at the same time, Who gets to say what a 40-year-old woman does, who gets to say what a 25-year-old woman does? Like that's nobody's business to say what we can or can't do. If it's something that makes you, We're really big, both of us on pink eye shadows. Yeah. And it looks really good with our skin tones. It looks phenomenal, and it's like, but again, it's when I do pink sparkly eyes, which looks great. I know there's people that are like, Ugh, like why are you wearing so much makeup? Or why are you doing that? Well. I like it though.

Emily: 47:33

It's something that I like and it brings me joy in doing those simple things that are like elevating your life. That's why we're here. That's why we're living. What your life is for is to make your life better. So me putting glitter on my lids And mascara on every day, that makes me feel good. I'm confident in doing that, and I don't need anybody else to tell me that that doesn't look good.

Kristen: 47:56

Yeah.'cause there's enough negativity and garbage in the world that if we can bring a little bit of sunshine and radiance to our little corners of it by some glitter, eyeshadow, or glitter in our hair, or sparkles on our shoes. That's what we should do honestly, the world probably needs more of that. When we talk about minimizing girls and having them not be seen and not take up space, we're out here being like, look at me. I'm doing something that brings me joy. I'm happy with me.

Emily: 48:25

Mm-hmm.

Kristen: 48:25

That should be enough.

Emily: 48:27

That's something for the studio. I tell the girls like. I have boys who dance at my studio too. I don't know why I always say, I tell my girls,

Kristen: 48:36

well that's, the majority right now. You've got, what, three boys this year?

Emily: 48:40

I have four.

Kristen: 48:41

Oh, right. Preschool, Yes. Four.

Emily: 48:43

Yes. I have four boys this year. it was two or three years ago I had seven. that's when I updated. The logo to have a male dancer as well. Because they deserve to be included I tell my students at the end of the year that this is your time to show up and to show out.

Kristen: 49:01

Mm-hmm.

Emily: 49:01

So you get to start adding your flare to this dance. We wanna see who you are as a performer. Not everybody's gonna make the same face as we put our hand here. Some people are gonna do like the big smile, like the cheesy, overdone smile. Some people are gonna do like the little sassy, like pout. what's you, how do you feel? And that's something I do love about dance is it's so expressional.

Kristen: 49:27

And it can be expressive and it should be because nobody wants to see a dancer up there looking like he or she is not having fun. your eyes are going to gravitate to the dancers who look like they're having a fun time because when you've got a class of five, seven. 14 people on stage, you can't watch all of them for the entire two and a half minute song. So you may look from dancer to dancer, but the ones that are the happiest, like I always have favorite dancers in each of the dances. And I'll know who'cause I see a lot of the dancers. All the shows. But there's certain ones that like, oh, she's gonna be dancing. I wanna make sure I am out there to see this girl dance because she's so fun to watch.

Emily: 50:03

the people who light up the stage Not because they're hitting every mark. Mm-hmm. And they're nailing every step. Right. It's the kids who are having fun. Yeah. it's the people who are smiling and enjoying and are laughing at themselves. Mm-hmm. They're having a good time. They're proud of all the work that they've done. Yes. And that's what that's for.

Kristen: 50:24

And I think that's a great way to wrap this up because as a point for life. It's not that you're making the perfect moves, the perfect steps, it's that you're having a good time, you're enjoying yourself, you're doing something that makes you happy and you're proud of the work you put in. what you just said about dance. Is true to life and encapsulates everything. We talk about society telling girls to be quiet, to stay in line, to sit like a lady, to not be too much, to not take risks. I think the message should be do what you wanna do. Don't worry about being perfect, just have fun and do what makes you happy so that you are full of life and leading a life of fullness.

Emily: 51:07

Absolutely.'cause even though we're all maybe showing up to the same job or grocery shopping at the same store

Kristen: 51:13

mm-hmm.

Emily: 51:13

Or we're all doing the same choreographed dance, everybody's different physically, mentally, expressly. Everybody is gonna do their own thing. So this is your time to show up. Show out, be authentically you. I always tell the kids, keep on dancing and just fake it till you make it.

Kristen: 51:34

Yep. And mic drop, because we can't say anything beyond that. That's just brilliant. we've just solved all the world's problems right there,

Emily: 51:42

right there.

Kristen: 51:43

Well, Emily, this was fantastic. you are welcome back anytime and I can't wait to hear about what we talk about next.

Emily: 51:50

Thank you

Kristen: 51:50

All right.