Alexis: 0:36

Hey, everybody. I've got Alexis here with me today. Hi, Alexis. Hi, Kristen. It's so good to be back. And I'm excited to delve into this topic today.

Kristen: 0:46

Yeah, I'm excited and nervous. Like I've been stressing out all day about this. So friends, before we get into it, I want to give you a heads up that this is not an episode for kids. Unless you want to talk to them about purity rings and true love weights and why we were all afraid of kissing people before marriage. Cause we're going to talk like real talk about purity culture, how it shaped our views on sex, relationships, self worth, so we're going to be talking about shame, intimacy. And I'm learning a lot of the messages we grew up with. So if that feels like it's going to be too much, cause I know I'm nervous about it. If you need to take care of yourself while you're listening, if you need to take a pause, totally get it. And if talking about sex makes you uncomfortable, because it does for me, just pretend it's 2001 and we're at a sleepover and we're whispering about it. So nobody else can hear. So it's just us. It's just us here talking about it. Not even a big deal. Not even a big deal. Because I'm freaking out. But anyway so how did we get here? Last year I had read the book Pure Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free by Linda K. Kline. And it was one of the most I don't know if inspirational is the right word, but it is a book that I read that really hit home because so many of the stories that she shared from her own time and from the people she interviewed, like they were sharing stories that felt like my stories. And it was one of those things where I was like, Oh my gosh, it wasn't just me. Like other people are feeling like this. And it wasn't just what had happened in the past, but how it was still affecting me now. So the book goes over, the late nineties, early two thousands, the purity culture, true love weights, all the messages that we were told. And it really the shame and fear based messaging that it promoted, especially for young women. So I highly recommend that book. I don't want to go too into it too much, because if this is a topic that interests you, you should totally go read it yourself. But I wanted to at least bring up like where this came about. Okay. And then Alexis and I were casually talking a couple weeks ago and then, had some similar views to oh my gosh, that affected you too. This is something that if we are affected by it, there are probably other people out there. And even if you didn't grow up this way, you may be know somebody that did, or maybe you're just curious about it. Or maybe Doggers have been on like 18 Kids and Counting. Or the one they had on Amazon, happy little people. And you're just like, wow, that's a crazy lifestyle. And first disclaimers too, there is no judgment here. However you want to believe whatever you do. That is that you do you boo, but today Alexis and I are really going to try to break down where we came from and how it was and how it affected us. So is that a pretty good opening summary, Alexis? Would you add anything that I miss?

Alexis: 3:45

It is. I think I think the one thing that I would add is I do want to add this disclaimer that I, am a born again Christian. So I do believe that God has reasons for things and there is much to be said in the Bible regarding waiting for marriage for sex. But. It needs to be framed in a different way, and that sex isn't an evil thing, and I'm sure we'll get into more of that, but I don't want it to be like, oh, I think you should just be proniscuous before marriage and whatever I do think there is some biblical Aspects to that and we'll get more into it, but I don't want to just say I'm negating everything that I feel the Bible teaches because that's not it at all.

Kristen: 4:31

No, and I would agree with that. I don't think it's negating all of it. I think for me, it's more. how it was presented, the tone it was presented in, and just a lot of things surrounding it. Yes. They're not biblical. Yes. And I don't think that was necessary to package it with. So now we have to unpackage it, unpack it and deal with it. Yep. So first, when you're thinking back, Alexis, how did you first learn about purity culture? What were some of the core messages we were taught about sex and relationships?

Alexis: 5:07

Yeah, so I think I probably need to set the stage a little bit different than probably like your average we'll say church kid or youth group kid because my, I attended a public school up until about sixth grade and then I moved into a private Christian school. And at the time, my mom was born again, Christian. but my I lived in a divorced family, but my stepdad is like my dad. He is my dad. He's always raised me and I don't look at him any different, but he was not did not accept Jesus as a savior until he was, I was in like fifth or sixth grade. So we didn't grow up in this like church atmosphere. My parents had standards for us. But it wasn't like like we listened to, during the time, certain music would have been considered awful in the church that we attended, but I grew up listening to that. So it wasn't anything different. When we, my dad was saved and we started going to church on a regular basis, that's when I was introduced to this as purity culture, which is weird because We didn't always practice this at home, but I think my parents were trying to almost come into the church and do what the church wanted, almost like it was like a peer pressure. And keep in mind that a lot of evangelical churches at the time, like that we attended, I would consider them legalistic. It was a lot of man made rules and they weren't like biblical. And so I think that's where I first learned about it, but it was foreign to me. We can get more into this. I don't know at what point you want to talk about like clothing was just that was this thing like If you wear revealing clothing as a girl, then like you're making a man stumble no, that's not at all what the bible talks about regarding modesty is more than what you wear The modesty is your heart. It's your outward how you present yourself. Are you humble? It's a humble heart It's not just like What you wear. And it was confusing to me because my family grew up, we grew up water skiing, so I was in my bathing suit all weekend, and that was definitely against a purity culture in our church. If that makes sense. Oh, for sure.

Kristen: 7:17

Clothing was huge. Yeah, you couldn't even wear a bathing suit. You'd have to like, wear a shirt over it, or wear culottes over it, and culottes are like baggy shorts. It's like a skirt that's sewn together, so it's like shorts, like gauchos, I think. Culottes are crazy, but continue with your story. like

Alexis: 7:35

four times the size of, yeah. We had this and so you're hearing this on Sunday mornings and my parents don't necessarily follow this, but you feel like, okay, maybe I need to do this because that'll make me a better Christian. And I'm going to be closer to God when. Really? That's not at all what the Bible is saying. And like it is important. I don't want to, I'm not, this is my personal belief. So I do think like I shouldn't walk around with my butt cheeks hanging out and, my midriff. So you can see the bottom of my boot cleavage, excuse my language. We are talking about sex, right? But so there is a point, but I. I'll never forget this story. We went to a youth conference and this lady was talking to us about modesty and her rule her husband and hers rule, which this is for them, but to be preaching this to young kids was just, Interesting and impressionable

Kristen: 8:34

teenagers.

Alexis: 8:35

Yes. If you can see the curves in the front and the curves in the back, then it's not modest and you shouldn't be wearing it. And that's just not at all. It, at that point we were being blamed for men's stumbling and. Having impure thoughts and that's just wrong to me. At what point do they have a responsibility? Like you can, that's not at all what the Bible teaches. And that's what I will always just go back to is there was just so much shame put on us and responsibility. And it was like, where is the men's responsibility? Where's the boys responsibility? That's not okay. And it's wrong. It's just biblically incorrect.

Kristen: 9:15

100%. And they made boys seem like they were just like dumb cave men who couldn't control their thoughts. Oh my gosh, if they see your shoulder, they're just going to want to rape you right there. And that's your fault. I remember I was wearing a spaghetti strap top, which wasn't that real. It didn't come down that low. It was just the straps were there. And I remember my dad being like, Oh, you really need to be careful. When you go out wearing something like that. And I'm like, something like what, like it's, I'm growing up outside Pittsburgh. It's 97 degrees outside. I made that up. I don't know what the temperature was, but it was in the summer. It was hot. I was just wearing summer clothes. Yeah, for sure. And I was just wearing, what a regular 16, 17 year old girl was wearing. I didn't put it on and think Oh, I'm going to seduce someone today. It was just like, it's hot. It's summer. This is what I'm wearing. So yeah, the clothing thing was huge.

Alexis: 10:04

Boys can wear, they can go out without their shirts. Oh, yeah. And I don't have any problem with that. I would never have a problem with that now. And so it's, but interestingly enough And not to like, I'm not trying to drag my family into this, but interestingly enough, my husband actually says if we're going to have the rules for the girls, then the boys should have the same rules, which I actually admire because he was like, no if women can't just walk around in like their bathing suit top, then men shouldn't just walk around without a shirt. So funny enough, he doesn't usually walk around a lot without a shirt, which I Whatever, that's his thing. But because of that, my boys don't. And I'm like, you can just take off your shirt. It's hot, and my husband's yeah, I don't really like that. And I'm like, okay, whatever, it's one of those things that we have to deal with, but we're seeing those effects still to this day, but at least they're even, at least he's recognizing, Hey, what's good for the women is good for the men a thing, I don't know. I can at least appreciate that came out of it. Sure.

Kristen: 10:55

I think my story is a little bit different than yours because I had grown up. I was basically born into the church. We were always a church. And then I, when I started school in first grade, I started a Christian school. I went to Christian school my whole life. and it was all, there was always a dress code. It was always skirts. It was always, look very good, like a good girl should. And then when I got into, high school and youth group, that's when the purity culture, I don't remember it being called purity culture back then. I remember it being true love weights movement. True love waits. And I remember it would be talked about in chapel at school. We would have, people come through on, what did they call it? Like mission nights or whatever. And people would come through and they'd be our chapel speaker and they talk about stuff. And then in youth group, we'd go to youth rallies. And I remember we went to one, I want to say it was at Slippery Rock Baptist camp. I can't remember for sure, but this is like where I picture my head. We were in like one of those like camp auditorium things And we made like the true love waits pledge and we got little cards and we signed them and we're like, you know I'm not having sex till I'm married and all this stuff But at the time I don't think it was necessarily About that not having sex again. It was like if you have sex you're sinning you're terrible you're going to hell Again, I don't know if those the words that were used but it was just made like this is the worst possible thing Like when I was younger I probably thought that I'd get in less trouble for murdering someone than for sleeping with someone. And I'm using that as a hyperbole I know that it's not true, but they talk about that a lot more. Like of all the commandments, it was more about don't have sex. Like in the movie of mean girls, when he's don't have sex, you'll get pregnant. You will die. That is literally what I thought. And that actually the pregnant part Is more what kept me from having sex than the biblical part because I was terrified of getting pregnant oh my gosh being a teen mom. That's terrible. Like I can't get pregnant and I was also so insecure. I didn't want anybody like doing stuff with me there anyway, but that's another topic. But no, the pregnancy thing scared me interesting

Alexis: 13:07

to me, though, that's interesting to me that you thought about the pregnancy part because that's not what was ever talked about there is a reason biblically we know there's, you have STDs, you could have there's an emotional connection there there's a lot of things that we know that can just affect your life. In pregnancy, but that's never how it was framed from at least for me for the whole virginity thing. It was just this is a commandment. You have to keep it a thing. And it's wait a second. I think had you shared other through other reasons, the emotional like the pregnancy and stuff. I think it would have had a much deeper and better. Effect and then more less scary. Does that make sense?

Kristen: 13:46

Yeah. No, I think you're right because that's more like an outward Consequence like getting pregnant is one thing but like having God hate you forever because you had sex is an internal thing

Alexis: 13:58

And it's not even true like that part God hating you because you did that isn't even a thing like We know that that's just but it was never framed. It's like It's so simple. It's it was like the worst thing in the world at the point. Yeah, it was worse than I, like you said, the murder. So yeah.

Kristen: 14:13

Yeah. And I was so all in, like I was yay abstinence. Like I had friends that had true love weights. I wrote an entire paper, which I found recently. I wrote a paper about how abstinence was the only prevention to teen pregnancy. And. It was actually a very wonderful paper. I will pull it out again and see what grade I got on it. Very proud of that paper, but also still writing about sex was weird for me because the fact that I'm even saying the word sex is very uncomfortable for me still. Like I am very, I am some may use the word Rude ish perhaps? That like I don't you and I've talked about it in other things too like I'm not into spicy books like it still makes me very uncomfortable and I think a lot of it is because of I'm using this term loosely, but the brainwashing of my youth I feel like that's why I have certain opinions and feelings still towards sex because of this.

Alexis: 15:07

Yeah. I think that's a really good point. I think I don't have those experiences because they didn't have all of that. So I had another aspect of that and a little more different diet family dynamic with my parents and some of the stuff that we were taught, but it's contradictory. So you have to, I had to unpack what really was, but I think. There was a time as a teenager when we were really in church and like all their sex was scary. Sex was like a bad thing. It was scary. And I think as we know, it's not the case, sex is wonderful, and I'm saying this it's a good thing, women should be, enjoy it, they should be empowered, it is a good and wonderful thing in the confines of marriage, and, obviously, if you're not in the confines of marriage, we know that there's emotional pain. Problems but marriage sex within marriage is so amazing that it's hard to Let go of that because you've been taught like oh, it's so bad for so long. It really is something that you have to Let go and it's hard and it's I don't think everybody's able to do it that has grown up in this culture So I can see that

Kristen: 16:15

Now, before we get too far into the here and now, let's still reminisce back a little bit and in the times, are there other things within the culture that kind of reinforced it? Did you, what was the book? The Josh Harris, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Was that ever big where you were? I

Alexis: 16:34

think it was, but I never read it and I didn't ever do it. I'm like looking back at the college years, because keep in mind that when we went to the college years, those same ideas would have been still carried over for us code that we had to do to even the Christian, other Christian colleges that we did. Couples could hold hands where we went to college. And that was like a blast for me. If you remember right, we were considered a very liberal Christian college when in reality we weren't because you could hold hands and just the fact that we could leave campus with boys was like, unheard of. Other colleges, definitely, Christian colleges definitely didn't do that. Keep in mind, I specifically chose Clearwater for some of those things when my family wanted me to go to Christian college and I am like, I'm not going to that one. And I'm definitely not going to that one. But Clearwater, ooh, I can, I can get on board with that. I had some other extenuating circumstances with that, but that was like a thing and I think even in those formative college years, that pressure, even remember, we had to get our clothes checked for formals. For our fine arts formals. I forgot about that. And can we not like, yeah. And all the dresses were

Kristen: 17:50

ruined anyway because we'd have to put a sweater over all of them so our shoulders weren't seen. Not ruined, but I'm just saying you didn't get the full effect of the dress because you had to wear like a shawl or a sweater. So you're just covering up your dresses.

Alexis: 18:05

And I remember having to bend over and making sure that it wasn't going to like, bend over in front of all these teachers. And it's the whole idea of shame. Oh my word, my body is like shameful. I think that those are such formative years, even after high school and those college years, that it just adds to it. Another layer of

Kristen: 18:24

shame. Yeah, because you're entering your young adulthood then too. Like you're already establishing your own core beliefs and values and Self worth really like what who are you and what are you? It's pivotal moment and that's when they're putting all of that on you.

Alexis: 18:42

You know, that's funny because now that we're actually sitting here talking about this the way I dress now You is definitely different than my family. I have very, I don't wear tank tops. And I think some of that now I'm thinking about it. Wow. Like it really does go back to college and high school and what I couldn't wear because of school, not necessarily what my family wanted, but because I couldn't, and because I feel uncomfortable, some of it is, has to do with just my weight and my body, but I really just Don't wear those kind of things because there's just this internal thing still, which is funny to me as we're unpacking this, me thinking through that.

Kristen: 19:20

Yeah, sticking on the dress code for a minute. Do you remember at Clearwater, like, how many fingers something could be below your collarbone?

Alexis: 19:28

Three.

Kristen: 19:28

Okay. So I'm like, it was three or four. Yeah. And for the longest time, I would still do that. Maybe it was four. Three or four. I thought it was four, but it may have been three. Yeah. I don't anymore. Like I did for a while and I'd be like, Oh my gosh, this is very low. And now it's whatever. It's like the, one of the best parts of my body is right there. So let's show that part off. I am okay with wearing revealing clothes there.

Alexis: 19:53

Yeah. That, and that's the funny part. And now that you think about it, it is, I. That is really something. And what's funny is my daughter I don't ever really pay attention. Like I care what she wears, but I guess that I don't necessarily put those things on her, so she never knows anything and she picks out her clothes and yeah. My parents had standards, but it was always what school wanted or something like that. So this wasn't a, I don't know. I actually remember my, I, when I did my senior pictures, because keep in mind at the time, senior pictures, you could, it was like a thing to wear your formal dress, right? That you might've wore for like college. So I wore a formal dress and it was like strapless. It had no straps and I got so much. Crap for it even from my high school boyfriend at the time if I remember right and looking back I'm like, I could have never imagined covering it up and it looks so nice like it's not anything like there's nothing revealing about it. It's actually really pretty like it looks good Like they're probably some of my favorite photos of myself and I don't think I would never dress like that. Now, even my wedding dress, I wore it was, I picked it out. I actually liked it, but it was very covering, and I think it all goes back to that whole purity culture and being modest in your, what you wear, and there was too much focus on that.

Kristen: 21:17

Yeah, no, I agree. Now, question on your senior picture. Did you pose with a tree? No. Okay. Like most I've even seen it going on. There was a trend for a while to an Instagram. It was like showing your your high school pictures from the early two thousands or whatever. And it's here we are with a tree. Here we are at the train tracks. Here we are. Like, it was just like, Oh my gosh, everybody did that. I didn't mind we're in a studio, but I know a lot of other people did do that.

Alexis: 21:40

It was, yeah, it was a studio. So it was very, just very flattering. Probably, honestly, as a photographer myself I would take something like that, whatever, like the, my, whoever would want to wear, whatever they would want to wear in a studio. It was very just plain and just a very good, like headshot portrait, nice senior photo. And then I had some casual ones, of course, but those are my favorite.

Kristen: 22:01

I love that. So going back to college then, gee, I don't know if you were there for it or not, but they had, it was a night time. I don't know if it was a devotional or they got all the girls together and Mrs. Stratton talked to us. Do you remember this? I'll keep going with the story. Keep going. Okay. Maybe I'll remember. It might not have been when I was there. And I'm pretty sure it was Mrs. Stratton and she, I don't know what the topic was. Probably something along these lines. But I remember a specific statement that she made and she was like, on your wedding night, you're either going to be the girl dancing on the piano or the girl hiding in the bathroom. And I think the intent was that like, once you get married, you're either going to be all in or you're going to be scared of it. I wish I could remember what the actual context was and why this is the only thing that stuck with me. And it's crazy that's even shared because how are you supposed to be the girl dancing on the piano, like all in when you've been told for so long that it's so terrible and you've been shamed about your body and what you can do with your body. I don't know. It's just. It's hard for me to think about that.

Alexis: 23:13

Yeah, that's interesting. I think in and of itself, that is just looking back at it, I don't even know that was her place to even share that kind of stuff. That should be stuff that your mother shares with you. Okay. Maybe you're different.

Kristen: 23:28

Let me tell you this. I was going to ask you to what your sex education was at home, because the only thing I remember being told, and this is nothing against my parents. I love my parents. I remember my mom telling me again, I remember one line I was in the kitchen, I don't know when it was or why it was. I think I might have been going out with high school boyfriend or something. And she says to me, let's pretend there's an aspirin between your knees. So you keep your legs closed. That was the sex education I got. Keep your legs closed, which I suppose is good advice, although there's still a bunch of stuff you can do even with your legs closed, so okay, but I just remember okay, and I was so embarrassed then too. The fact that my parents would even say anything to me, like this is crazy. Like everything was just so hushed for me and I think that made it harder too. So I was even more, I've already used the word impressionable, but I was more like just embarrassed. naive and just I don't know, I, it, I think it was all just a lot harder for me because I took everything the way that I did.

Alexis: 24:27

Yeah. So keep in mind, I went to public school, so we had puberty classes starting in like fourth grade. Now you can take it what you want now. I understand why the public schools do this. Do I necessarily agree with this now as being a parent of my, for myself, the way they do it now? Absolutely not. Because I think it's talks way younger, And to be honest with you, we do things completely different. And that's probably something for later in the conversation of maybe how you address it. But my, we did do that. My mom came to those classes with us, which I highly thought was really awesome. So we started this in fourth grade. And by the time you're in sixth grade, you're learning about the opposite gender and things like that. And that's a whole we can delve into more of that later for What it would be now. But also sex for, in my family, in the confines of marriage, it was never like discouraged in that. So my parents both had children out of wedlock. And so there was always like, These actions have consequences. You are not like a bad consequence from our actions, but it made our life harder in our, in those early years. And we struggled. And we as kids knew that because we had lived with our parents. And so we had seen that from like a broken home situation to that. But in the confines of parentage, like it was like, Sex was like, it was a good thing. It wasn't like a bad thing and there was nothing wrong to be shamed of. Like my mom, when, we were older and, engaged or dating, we talked about sex and it wasn't a scary thing by that point. And We can get into the whole topic of lingerie. That was like, yeah, you should like, if you are interested in that, do that. When I think there's some shame, even in the purity culture of like lingerie is so bad. And it's like that, no, it's really not. And it can be such a wonderful tool in your marriage. So yeah. I think I was blessed in that I didn't get like I wish I would have had a little bit more detail, but I think probably my parents just didn't have things are different. I think we parent different now because we know better and they even parented different than their parents did. But I feel like I was lucky and I got. the purity culture, but then I also had my parents influence to make it not so scary, but it might have just come through in like my dress. Does that make sense?

Kristen: 26:58

Yeah, it's almost like you had a more balanced approach. Like it wasn't all doom and gloom and hellfire and brimstone for you.

Alexis: 27:07

Yeah. And it wasn't like, it was just like, it was like, there was a known time. Like my parents, people get Oh no, your parents have sex. Yeah. Hello. You think I do? Of course they have this and it shouldn't be a, like a bad thing. Obviously we're not going to be like. Showing it to the world, but it was just a kind of a known fact and it wasn't a shameful thing where, people probably think, ew, gross, my parents, but hello, you got here, it's not that gross, I don't know, I look at it probably a little different than everybody else because I think I probably had that balanced approach and my parents didn't make it shameful But I think probably before they talked to me more in that high school time, it did feel shameful, if that makes sense.

Kristen: 27:50

Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. Because I'm trying to think back, I feel like it was all just negative for me. The stuff that I was given in school and church and youth group, the thing is, though, is that on the other side, my parents were very open with letting me read whatever, so I was reading Teen and YM and Seventeen, and there was stuff in there, there'd be questions about birth control or sex, so I knew what it was, like, there was probably even stuff like tips of how to give a good blowjob I was reading all that, and may or may not have been engaging in some of the activities but like for me, it was just like, so I feel like I got a balanced approach like you did too, but not the same way, because even though I was reading about that in the magazines and possibly engaging in some activities that wasn't the main messaging that I was getting reinforced over and over again.

Alexis: 28:46

Yeah, no, and that's it's such a balance and I think maybe that's where you have to start to unpack like this isn't right and like this is that now and I think we've talked about this a little bit with books Like I really like I don't like smut There are a lot of really like series like, the Empirion series with fourth wing and stuff I love those books, but I don't love it for the romantic Scenes in it. There is romance in the books and I enjoy that, but I like it for the overarching. So I will skip it because I think there is a little bit of shame. And I honestly, it's this is something that you have to, it's a personal thing, but it's almost like porn for women. And I'm not about that because I don't think porn is a good thing. I don't think it's biblical. It's not, there's nothing. Sex in the confines of marriage, it doesn't fit that in that good part of it. So I, I don't always like that. And I know that, there's some judgment of why don't you, you should just not read them. If that stuff's in there. It's here's the thing. It's one or 3 percent of the book. Like I've actually looked at the books and it's a tiny amount. I can skip the chapter and I gladly do and still know what's going on the book and still enjoy the book. There's nothing wrong with that. If that makes sense, at least for me, that's my conviction. No, I get that. I think it's good. I actually think that We need more books to explore this topic of, sex in the confines of marriage, not explicit. It doesn't need to be super spicy and all that, but it does I think there, I think women can see more of that. And It's not a bad thing. I think if we see that, we move away from that purity culture of sex is bad. Yeah. Because

Kristen: 30:24

you become more normalizing it. There's so much just stuff that, is still shamed. And my, my thing on sex in the books, I'm going to if it enhances the story or if there's a reason for it, I don't want to read it just for the heck of it. And this doesn't make me seem even more weird, but I'm really particular about the words they use for it. I swear, there's Sometimes where it's he put his throbbing manhood deep inside my tunnel of love or like some crap like that. I'm like, oh my gosh, I feel so awkward. I'd much rather you just say his penis went in my vagina and we orgasm. Let's just use regular words, you guys. Oh my gosh, you know how hard it was for me to say all those words in a row. I think I'm blushing right now.

Alexis: 31:04

But and see, and I don't love that in books because I don't feel like it's necessary. I think you could just say they went to bed. Yeah, closed door romance, more closed door romance. Yes. I'm not going to freak out, but honestly, I'll just get the page because I don't need to read that because that's not, I don't need to think about this couple. That's not, does that make sense? Yeah,

Kristen: 31:22

no, I get that. And back to the shame thing, cause I think that's where I really struggle with is even in the confines of marriage. Okay. And even when something happens or we're doing something like in the moment, it's good, great, whatever. And then I'm thinking about it after I feel dirty. Not even if we've done anything actual dirty and I know this sounds weird. It's hard for me to explain it because I want to, keep the privacy of my marriage still, but just talking about the feelings that I have, that I still feel dirty after doing things. And I don't know how to get past that. I very much enjoy dirty talk here. We'll get a little personal but I am not good at it because I will try and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I sound like an idiot. Oh my gosh, this is so dumb. Oh my gosh, I am so embarrassed. And with my husband, like he is seen and knows and everything right? I should be comfortable and I'm not and it is so hard for me and I think this is why I ended up reading the book last year too because I'm like, what is wrong with me? Like, why is it this mental thing that I just can't get past? And that's where it came from. Like, all this shame, the years and years of being reinforced. That sex is bad. Dirty talk is wrong. You shouldn't be doing this. Don't do that. Don't ever do this. Like all those things are still messages that are like burned in my brain. And even though in the thinking part of my brain says, that's not true, Kristen, this is perfectly normal. Everything is fine. You are not a bad person. This is wonderful. It's like the other part of me is you're a sinner. You're disgusting. That's gross. Eww. And I struggle with those parts of me and it's been very challenging.

Alexis: 33:00

I think that is normal in married sex life. I think everybody has their things that they enjoy and they have their things that they don't enjoy. There are things that people will say, oh, it's fine. And I'm just like, no, not that. I'm not about that. And nope, we are not doing that. And I think there's okay. It's okay to have boundaries. I know you've been talking about boundaries with. Yeah. In your previous episodes, I think that you can have those. I think I think that as your, as a partner, you also have to respect another person's boundaries and they need to respect your boundaries. And obviously, I don't know your marriage, but I can say in my marriage, that's always been the case. There's always been respect as far as that. I also am a big proponent of trying things. You might not know if you don't like it, so try it. So I think, I do think that's normal. I think there's some things that are normal. I think, and I think as couples, you grow in it. I also think talking about it, this is going to sound weird, but I do think talking about those things outside of the bedroom and just saying, Hey, like I'm really uncomfortable. And then you have an understanding with your partner when you do are intimate Hey, this person is struggling with this. How can I help them? And I know the back history, so it doesn't feel and cause resentment because I know that can, sometimes affect your sex life. And that's hard. So I don't know. It's hard. It's hard for me to say too much on this because if I'm honest, my husband and I do not have a problem with our sex life. It's actually always been really good. And I don't ever want to throw him under the bus or anything, but it's really We've just never had those problems. If anything, I just have a body security issue, like in clothing or other things yeah, I wouldn't, don't want to wear that. I'm just miserably hot. So I'm going to make you all miserable because I'm cranky because I don't actually want to wear clothes that might be comfortable because. Of like a stigma with like purity culture in that. That's not something that I should show, so I think mine might manifest in a different way. For me, but, and I'm just realizing that now as we're talking. So see, that's what we're doing. Cheaper than therapy. Yes. We are

Kristen: 35:09

unpacking. And I like that you brought up the communication piece because how has purity culture influenced our ability to communicate about sex, pleasure and boundaries with our spouse? I feel like you were already talking about that, but I don't know if you have any more to answer that question.

Alexis: 35:24

Yeah, so I don't I mean I'm pretty open and honest with my husband regarding that and I think he is with me too. And we have had He probably comes from a little bit more Purity culture probably influenced him More than it influenced me within the church because he came from that and I think from a guy's perspective so it was a little bit hard I think when our first marriage because i'm like all about it and he's that's not normal because if you feel like women aren't, like that's not your role, but I have a very, I'm just going to be blunt. I have a higher sex drive than most women. Like we know this, I can count on, I'm not going to, I'll just be blunt and honest. It's not unheard of for my husband and I to have sex. That's really important for a couple in their, late 30s, pushing 40s. That's not normal. And when we were younger, even it was more. And I'm not, that's not normal. It's just not normal. Yeah. I don't know if maybe I have hormone issues, but like the good

Kristen: 36:24

kind, like he's winning with those hormone issues.

Alexis: 36:28

I will say the more sex you have, I think the more you want it. There really is something to that and that's just, how it is. And we don't. But it took, I don't know, I think it was a little bit of weird for him because that's not how the church made it out. Like women don't want to necessarily have sex and you're gonna have to lead them in this and that's not always been the case in our relationship.

Kristen: 36:52

So I get that. So for me, and I already did, mention it, I do feel in some aspect it has affected my ability to communicate. Now I'm the kind of girl that I'm like, I'll try anything once. If I like it, I'll try it again. If not, then I won't. So And I am okay communicating those kind of things, and I'm usually open about other things too I like this, I don't like that. I do want to try this, I don't want to do that. But I think just talking about sex is still hard for me, which I know sounds weird because now I've said sex how many times? I'm getting better. I'm getting better! Yeah! Therapy! We're getting there! Yeah, but I am still uncomfortable. If he wants to talk about it the next day Oh, la, about last night. I'm like, no, I don't want to talk about it! If I'm in the moment, and my brain is there. Oh, we have those. Oh, you do? I

Alexis: 37:39

have those moments where like he's yeah, and about last night. I'm like, yeah, let's not talk about i'm done Yes,

Kristen: 37:45

Like I was I could get there in the moment. It was wonderful. It was lovely. Thank you. Enjoyed it let's never talk about it again

Alexis: 37:53

Right or we can talk about that the next time but i'm we're moved on to kids life That part of my brain is completely Closed for the moment. Like I have that. So you're not, I think maybe that's normal, but I don't know. I

Kristen: 38:05

know, I think either we're both normal or both crazy, but we're in it together. So that's cool. Okay. Moving on a little bit then, like we've talked about the past and how it happened and where we are now, but when you're thinking back from that transition to our young lives, learning it all, and then where, when did you start questioning purity culture or what led to those realizations?

Alexis: 38:29

To be honest, I would say only in the past five years when I just was like okay, so as my children have gotten older and we needed to have these discussions, I think that's when I recognized, waiting until you're like, eight to teach about sex and how babies are made is absolutely wrong way to do it and at least For our home i'm going to preface this and say this is how we teach our kids. It's not necessarily for others So I think that's when I recognize there needs to be a deeper issue about this. So my kids we've always discussed Reproduction from the time they are little, like there's an egg, there's a seed, and as they get older, they just get more layers to it. So it's not so shocking when they get to be teenagers. And I think my kids have always known about periods, even my boys, because I want them to be compassionate. Yes, I've done that with mine too. I want them to understand. Yeah And when my daughter, I had to explain to her about, periods and sex and stuff. I didn't want to scare her. I said, listen, you're going to get your period. You can now have babies. You're how old? I don't want to, I don't want to tell her, but I want to say you have to be careful. Like you are now have the ability, but I don't want you to be scared of sex. It is not a set. It is not a scary thing. It is a wonderful thing in the confines of marriage. And I just want you to know. You may screw up, and I will still love you for who you are, and God will still love you. I don't want to do that. So I think that's when I recognized we have to teach sex differently. Also, I think people will find this statistic shocking, and it gets lower each year. The average child, just because of the internet, sees porn by the time they're seven years old. Oh my gosh. Seven. That's insane. Yeah, you should really be having these conversations regarding porn and just sex well before they're teenagers because it doesn't matter how sheltered of a life you live. You can have sheltered lives. If your kids are around the internet, you will see it. I know kids that have been at church youth group and the boys are sitting there watching porn on their phone. And It happens. It happens in youth group settings. It happens nowhere. Nobody is immune to it. I don't care who you are. I don't care, what it is. So that is having kids is when I recognize we have to go about this different. And that's, those are really the reasons why I came to those decisions, if that makes sense.

Kristen: 41:01

Yeah, no, I get that. Yeah, and something you said reminded me to, I wonder if when they were teaching us, they being, the church and everyone involved in purity culture back then, I wonder if they were teaching us through fear because they didn't know any other way. Because I don't know how they, a lot of them were probably coming of age during the make love, not war, like all the hippie stuff in the sixties and seventies free love. And they probably did see a lot of really bad stuff and STDs and all of that. And maybe that was just their way of trying to protect us. Oh my gosh, this is like an epiphany I am having in real time. And maybe it wasn't necessarily. To scare us and screw us up forever. But because they were so scared of everything they went through and wanting to protect us and scaring us was the only way to do it. I don't think they probably didn't use the word scare. I don't think they were intentionally trying to use scare tactics. But that's how we've been taught with other things, too. Like drugs. There was that commercial on TV with the egg in the frying pan, right? This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Everything was really taught in scare tactics. Oh, if you don't look both ways before you cross the street, you're going to get hit by a bus. Everything was just taught.

Alexis: 42:21

Even if you just talk about getting saved, it was like a fear brimstone, like you're going to hell. There wasn't a that was the kind of you have to do this or you're like a sinner. It was just so legalistic, but it was scary rather than a relationship or a, An understanding like there's a reason for this. It's not just because we do. We say these things because we love you because there's consequences, not just like this is said, you're right. I think it was a fear or a scare tactic rather than a relationship. Kind of a thing.

Kristen: 42:55

And they focus so much on the scaring and the shaming, which I know we've said shaming a lot and I wish I could think of another word for it, but that's like what girls were taught. It was like, if you have sex, every time you have sex or do something with someone, you're basically like a piece of gum and you're being chewed up and spit out and nobody's going to want a piece of chewed gum. Like you're used, you're gross, like nobody's ever going to want you unless you're pure and, virginal, nobody's going to want you. And I think that was part of it too. So okay, not only is sex terrible and I should be afraid of it. It also makes me less of a person if I've done it with somebody else. And then, oh no, if you've done it with even more people, you're giving a part of yourself every time you do it with someone and you're not gonna have anything to give your husband and he's not gonna love you. Like all the messages that were over and over it, it's like it was all to make us feel like absolute garbage, which I wanna give them the benefit of the doubt, and that wasn't their intention and they didn't know the long-term effects it was going to have on me. But I think, as I'm even just talking about it now that's a really crappy way to tell someone. And I,

Alexis: 44:15

It's not in and of itself isn't even biblical. We know that no matter what, that's not who we are. God loves us for who we are. And we are precious in his sight as women. It's just not even a this isn't even that's the hard part in that. There was almost a fear like God, like you feared God because of it, rather than recognizing that personal friendship relationship, the love of who God is, not saying, he doesn't have standards because he does, but the love was missing from it, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, I get

Kristen: 44:48

that.

Alexis: 44:49

And I think you hit the nail on the head with the fear and I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good summary of

Kristen: 44:56

it and it's what they use and it had multi layers to like, because, be the good girl, you're a good girl. You should be a good girl. And I think even. That and this is a whole episode in itself, but a lot of that really led to my people pleasing tendencies to and the, okay, good girls. Don't do this. Girl. Girls. Don't do that. You're a good girl. Do this. Do that. Don't do this. Don't do that. And I think a lot of it is just really messed me up.

Alexis: 45:23

But, oh, go ahead. Are you going to say something? No, I can. I can relate. I think It's deeper. And I think it, it permeates now that we're talking into other things outside of our sexual part of our marriage. So I think

Kristen: 45:45

you're spot on. Yeah. It's had huge effects, like on all parts. And I will say, because full disclosure I did not wait till marriage. My son was conceived in June of 2012, and I was married in November of 2012. I don't want to like, make anybody think that, I was as perfect as, Purity culture would have liked me to be. And

Alexis: 46:10

I'm not either. That's not either. I will say though, there is something special in that my husband did wait for me and that there was something special about that. There's also some learning curves that go with that though. I'm not going to lie, even just because I was the first person that he actually kissed. So there's some stuff that, so that's special in and of itself, but yeah. But see that I look. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. I see both sides of it. I don't have any shame for it. I have confessed. My husband knew I don't feel like I don't feel shame for it now. And I actually know it's helped me and explaining certain things to my kids. That kind of messed me up. It has some emotional problems. So just keep that in mind. It can, there is a reason Biblically that God does that because you do have some emotional connection as a woman doing that. Men may not. I think they probably do, but they hide it, but women for sure do. So

Kristen: 47:07

yeah. And see, I struggle with that too. And I know this will probably sound terrible also, but there have been some. Okay. Let's pause. I'm gonna go on a quick little side story, but I promise it'll bring us back to this. It'll be a journey we will all enjoy being on. So I remember being in high school and people would give their testimonies and they'd be all like, Oh, I was into drugs and alcohol and sex and all this bad stuff and then I found God and I got saved and my life has been and I remember sitting there and being like I got saved when I was five. I'm not going to get to do any of this fun stuff because I'm just, I'm the good girl already. And I know, thank you for laughing. That makes me feel like this isn't as terrible as I'm telling it, but I remember being that way. This is just, it's awesome because it's relatable. Yes. And I remember resenting it and I'm not going to get to do all the sinful stuff because God found me too soon. And woe is me. And I look at that cause there's a whole bunch of things I didn't experience. I still have never done drugs in my whole entire life. And that's something I'm proud of. And yay. But back to the point, I think about it as sex kind of the same way too, is because I wasn't off having sex all through my youth, I didn't know what I liked or didn't like or what it was. And I do think there's sometimes, just like I resented those people who got to have all that quote unquote fun before getting saved, is that I also see that as like, All those other people that were out there having fun with sex and learning how to do, what to do, all the things and then I get here and I'm like, I don't know, what's that? I don't know, and it's just weird. So I have to go back and think Would things have been different if I was out and about? And I still wouldn't have, because like I said, everything else, like I was so afraid of getting pregnant and being labeled a whore or a floozy or a slut, or pick your demeaning word of the day. That I don't, I still don't think I would have done it, but it's one of those things that I do think would it have been different? Could it have been different? I don't know.

Alexis: 49:15

I do think, I genuinely think if you really I think it's really I am, I will say this. We will counsel our kids to wait for their right person before they do it. I think there's a lot to be said for that. I think it. Goes somewhat into some of the divorce things and stuff like that and people could say no Like you need to know before you get married because but if they're bad, you know instead and I have different opinions on that i'm going to go from the biblical aspect of this so Coming from that. I do think couples that are born again christians that want to save themselves for each other for marriage should go through some sort of Sexual education for marriage Before they get married. I think it should be a class like I and there are some I'm seeing some of these things pop up now I think it will would help some of that frustration And learning curve when you actually get married. I really do it. I don't think there's anything wrong with it I think it's learning to be educated and that's why I say well Mom could teach them and that stuff. I do think that's important rather than, just like the standing on the piano or hiding, in your room, like there shouldn't be any of that. You should know, like the basics of what are going to happen. And you can also be prepared to like, no, there's going to be a little bit of awkwardness, but it should also be enjoyable. It shouldn't be this scary, unknown. Kind of thing. Does that make sense? Yes, I'm just, I'm

Kristen: 50:41

picturing this class and I picture this couple walking into the table and then there's like Dildo on one side of like, all right, let us show you how you would perform fellatio. And they're like, and you sir Let me show you where the clit is. Let us find the GC spot, like it's just like the whole thing is Oh my gosh. I think at that point I'd be like, I don't want to get married. This is so awkward.

Alexis: 51:05

There are like online classes that are like PDFs that you print that are like booklet form is what I'm seeing them. And those, I think are like, they call them like the honeymoon course or something like that, which makes sense. And they're actually not, they're really not cheesy. They're like, I really think at first it sounds like it, but I do think. Okay. I don't know, I think they have their place and I do think that they can be really beneficial for couples because Oh, for sure. I just, I don't, I think it would take some of that awkwardness out and, I don't know, it'd make it feel less intimidating. Yeah. Especially if you had come from the purity culture. Now if you come from a family that, you don't we don't really see the purity culture in churches nowadays, at least the church that we attend. That's not obviously it's spoken of biblically, but it's not this push on our teens like we have. I think maybe, had you seen that kind of stuff? I do think in some church sects, like I know in the LDS church, it is like that. So those kind of things I think might be beneficial for them. But, my church that we go to, it's not specifically, there are certain things that we look for, so how do you feel

Kristen: 52:10

about true love weights? I need to know if you're going to shame on my children,

Alexis: 52:15

right? So I think there's that there's a lot more, there's a lot more things. I know of actual books now for girls and boys that are their puberty that are a little more They're not so scary and not there's a little more to it if that makes sense

Kristen: 52:30

Yeah, so if you could go back and tell your younger self something What would you tell her about purity culture? Not just like we don't need to go through a whole like all the things you would tell younger alexis But what would you tell her about this?

Alexis: 52:46

I think I would Discuss as I'm thinking stuff not to put too much weight on what you wear Obviously and that modesty isn't just about what you wear because you can be An unhumble person and just downright awful. And you're not being modest. That's not what it is. And I would focus more on maybe the heart and forget the clothes. I would probably also I said, I don't regret like not having sex before marriage. I would think I would probably tell myself like, don't rush it. There's no reason like it's not a big thing. You can wait till marriage and it's really okay. It's actually a beautiful thing but I don't also regret it. I don't think I would change anything that's happened if that makes sense

Kristen: 53:33

Oh, yeah, because it made you who you are Every experience you had. Yeah, I don't know what I would tell younger me I think I would try to tell her, you know You're not a bad person Like it's okay You I don't know, just don't be so scared I don't know I picture myself then and it's hard for me to think what I would tell her because, she didn't get an STD, she didn't get pregnant until she was 28, so 29, 28, whatever so she did pretty good. I don't know. I think I'm just don't take everything so seriously, listen to what they're saying, but use your brain and just don't fall into all the fear tactics and shaving garbage. You're better than that.

Alexis: 54:27

That's what I tell her. Yeah I think that's, I think that's wonderful because I think, yeah, don't feel shame. There's no shame. I don't know, like it's okay to feel shameful for your sin, but not dwell on it forever. There comes a point when you're just going to ruin yourself. So I love that. I love that for

Kristen: 54:47

you. So I'm hoping there's other people out there that either have gone through similar things or know what we're talking about, experienced it. So if there are listeners out there struggling with similar experiences, whether in their past or present, what it, what would you say to them or what advice would you give?

Alexis: 55:07

I would say that sex is a wonderful thing. And if you're a Christian, you can look at to song of Solomon. The Bible clearly has an entire book devoted to love and sexual things and sex is discussed in the Bible. So don't look at it as a bad thing and learn to, you can learn to enjoy it. Communicate with your partner, find what, makes you guys is works for your relationship, but communication and just knowing like sex, isn't a bad thing. It could be a really amazing thing. That's wonderful.

Kristen: 55:46

I think what I would say to people if this is something you struggled with or are struggling with, I still highly recommend the pure book that I mentioned at the beginning and I'll put the title of it in the description too so you can go see it because it really helped me to put things together. So I highly recommend that book and just don't be so hard on yourself. Be open to things, know that everything you were taught as a child, a young adult may not have been completely true and it may not have been presented in a way that anyone ever meant for it to stick with you this long. That it's okay to let go of those things, to let go of some of the beliefs you had when you were younger. It's okay to move on from that and to establish what you are okay with now and what you believe to be true now and just move on. Live your best life, girlfriend. Or boyfriend. Or anybody who's listening. Whatever you are. Live your best life. That's my advice. I love that. Go have all the sex. All the sexes.

Alexis: 56:50

Within reason. If that's not your thing.

Kristen: 56:53

Oh, yeah, don't have all the sex if you don't want to have all the sex but feel open to have all the sex Drop the aspirin between your knees open your legs have all the sex See look how much i've moved on i'm like ready like i'm gonna go have sex right now like as soon as we're done I don't really know if I am but it seems like a fun thing to say yay sex look at me Far i've come

Alexis: 57:20

See, this was good, don't feel pressure. No pressure.

Kristen: 57:24

Okay. I feel pressured. I'm taking my clothes off. I'm just kidding. I'm not. Oh my gosh, Alexis. This is, we are spiraling at this point. So thank you so much for joining me. Is there any final thoughts you want to leave before we close this chapter until we open it again, maybe in another episode, but for now. Any final closing thoughts from you?

Alexis: 57:45

No, I think if I said it all, no judgment to me and my sex life, please, but For my honesty, but that was it that would be it

Kristen: 57:54

perfect Nobody's judging you the fact that you said you have sex five to seven days a week people are like I need to find this Girl, like that is wonderful. Maybe she can give me some tips. How do we do it? So we'll put what would Alexis contact information in the description also She'll be having those sex classes. She mentioned she'll send

Alexis: 58:15

you the PDF

Kristen: 58:19

2025. We're making it. Woo! For 2025, but here we are. I know. Here we are. All right. All right. Alexis, thank you very much, listeners. I hope you enjoyed this or got something away from it, and we'll just keep healing together. All right. Bye, Alexis. Bye.